USB, CD ROM & Networking in MS-DOS 6.21

Post by Clueless in Seattle
I've got a hard drive that I pulled out of an old Toshiba laptop on
which I was running MS-DOS 6.21. That laptop died years ago in the
middle of a project I was working on.
I'd like to copy the entire directory tree and all of its files over
to a newer hand-me-down laptop and then try to pick up my project
where I left off.
I'd be grateful for some advice on the simplest way to transfer the
contents of the old HD onto the new one. Here are some ways I've
1. Zip up the entire HD onto floppies and then unzip it onto the
newer HD.
2. Figure out how to get the CD-ROM drive in the newer laptop working
under DOS 6.21 and then use my PC to burn the old HD onto a CD-R .
3. Figure out how to get the USB port on the newer computer working
and then use an adapter to plug the old HD into the USB port on the
newer computer.
4. Connect the old HD to my desk PC and then figure out how to
network between a PC running Windows XP and a laptop running DOS 6.21.

I don't know the details on the new hand-me-down laptop. What (if
anything) does it run now?

The simplest approach I can think of, if the laptop will still be
running MS-DOS 6.21, is to simply swap the HDs.

The second approach uses an intermediary. My SO had an older Compaq
laptop that died. I got laptop->IDE converter, pulled the drive from
the laptop, connected it to an IDE port on my desktop, and copied the
data she wanted an HD on the desktop. From there, I could burn it to a
CD she could use to get it on her new 64bit HP laptop.

In your case, I'd get the adapter, pull the HD from the old laptop, copy
the drive (or the parts you want) to an HD on my desktop with sufficient
space, then pull the drive from the new laptop, and copy the desired
data to the new laptop's drive, plug it back into the new laptop, and
proceed. No CD-ROMs or networking are required.

Laptop->IDE converters are dirt cheap (like under $20) and are handy
things to have in the toolkit.
______
Dennis

Clueless in Seattle

2011-07-05 16:55:32 UTC

I don't know the details on the new hand-me-down laptop. What (if
anything) does it run now?

Thanks Dennis for such a speedy response!

The "new" laptop is Satellite 2545XCDT I received via FreeCycle
Seattle.

http://tinyurl.com/66bxseg

I reformatted the HD and installed MS-DOS 6.21 on it. I want to use
this as my "DOS only" computer.

The simplest approach I can think of, if the laptop will still be
running MS-DOS 6.21, is to simply swap the HDs.

Oops! I forgot to include that in my list of ideas. It did occur to
me, but I'm such a klutz that I'm afraid I might damage the "new"
laptop in my attempt. In other words, "If it works, don't fix it."
But, you're right. That would be the simplest solution.

The second approach uses an intermediary. My SO had an older Compaq
laptop that died. I got laptop->IDE converter, pulled the drive from
the laptop, connected it to an IDE port on my desktop, and copied the
data she wanted an HD on the desktop. From there, I could burn it to a
CD she could use to get it on her new 64bit HP laptop.

Yes! That's how I would prefer to do it. I've already plugged the
old HD via an adapter into my desktop PC and copied all of the folders
over to the PC's HD.

In your case, I'd get the adapter, pull the HD from the old laptop, copy
the drive (or the parts you want) to an HD on my desktop with sufficient
space, then pull the drive from the new laptop, and copy the desired
data to the new laptop's drive, plug it back into the new laptop, and
proceed. No CD-ROMs or networking are required.

That brings up the "klutz factor" again, but maybe I could manage it.

It would be nice, though, if I could get the CD-ROM drive up and
running under MS-DOS 6.21. Do you have any experience with that?

Will in Seattle
a.k.a. "Clueless"

DMcCunney

2011-07-05 18:07:00 UTC

Post by DMcCunney
I don't know the details on the new hand-me-down laptop. What (if
anything) does it run now?

Thanks Dennis for such a speedy response!

You're, welcome

Post by Clueless in Seattle
The "new" laptop is Satellite 2545XCDT I received via FreeCycle
Seattle.
http://tinyurl.com/66bxseg
I reformatted the HD and installed MS-DOS 6.21 on it. I want to use
this as my "DOS only" computer.

What had been on it? Meanwhile, I'd look for service manuals on the
Toshiba, with instructions for things like replacing the hard drive.
That *should* be easy to do. (Pulling the HD from my SO's laptop
required a Torx 8 driver, but I have a Torx driver set in my toolkit.
Loosen a screw, push the latch to unlock, and out it came.)

Post by DMcCunney
The simplest approach I can think of, if the laptop will still be
running MS-DOS 6.21, is to simply swap the HDs.

See above about service manuals.

Post by DMcCunney
The second approach uses an intermediary. My SO had an older Compaq
laptop that died. I got laptop->IDE converter, pulled the drive from
the laptop, connected it to an IDE port on my desktop, and copied the
data she wanted an HD on the desktop. From there, I could burn it to a
CD she could use to get it on her new 64bit HP laptop.

Yes! That's how I would prefer to do it. I've already plugged the
old HD via an adapter into my desktop PC and copied all of the folders
over to the PC's HD.

So you have a copy of the desired stuff, and were able to get the old
laptop open and pull the HD, even though you're a klutz. This gives
hope you could get the new one open too.

Post by DMcCunney
In your case, I'd get the adapter, pull the HD from the old laptop, copy
the drive (or the parts you want) to an HD on my desktop with sufficient
space, then pull the drive from the new laptop, and copy the desired
data to the new laptop's drive, plug it back into the new laptop, and
proceed. No CD-ROMs or networking are required.

That brings up the "klutz factor" again, but maybe I could manage it.
It would be nice, though, if I could get the CD-ROM drive up and
running under MS-DOS 6.21. Do you have any experience with that?

Yes, though not with MS-DOS 6.21 specifically. I have an old (circa
2002) Fujitsu laptop given to me by a friend who had upgraded but loved
the old box and wanted to give it to a good home rather than a dumpster.

It has an 867mhz CPU, 40GB UDMA4 HD, and 256MB RAM. She commented it
was "slow slow slow". Since it came from Fujitsu with Win XP Pro SP2,
no surprise. I reformatted and repartitioned the drive, and it quad
boots Win2K Pro, Ubuntu Linux, Puppy Linux, and FreeDOS 1.0. FreeDOS
uses MSCDEX.EXE to access the CD, and it works fine. I assume MS-DOS
6.21 can do likewise. It's a matter of loading the proper drivers in
CONFIG.SYS.

(Win2K is nearly unusable. Linux requires patience, but at least works.
FreeDOS flies. But the machine is largely an experiment to see what
performance I can wring out of old hardware without spending money, and
I had low expectations going in. I'm basically happy. What I *don't*
understand is why the box got good reviews back when it was released.
It certainly wasn't any faster.)

Post by Clueless in Seattle
Will in Seattle
a.k.a. "Clueless"

______
Dennis

Clueless in Seattle

2011-07-12 17:51:50 UTC

Post by DMcCunney
So you have a copy of the desired stuff, and were able to get the old
laptop open and pull the HD, even though you're a klutz. This gives
hope you could get the new one open too.

Hi again, Dennis!

Yes! I was able to dig out the HD from the old laptop. But the reason
I dared to try that operation was that that laptop had already died,
and so I figured I had nothing to lose by digging around in its
innards.

But, I'd hate to mess up my "new" hand-me-down laptop by trying to
repeat my success.

However, I think you're right that the simplest solution to my problem
is going to be to install the old HD in the new laptop. So I'm going
to proceed slowly and carefully to see if I can manage to remove the
HD from the new laptop without damaging the machine in the process.

In the meantime, I'd like to make a complete back-up of the HD from
the old laptop (which is now connected via a USB adapter to a PC
running Windows XP).

I'd be grateful to you (or anyone else who is following this thread,
for that matter) for instructions on how to do that.

Will in Seattle
a.k.a. "Clueless"

Clueless in Seattle

2011-07-12 17:22:32 UTC

Post by DMcCunney
So you have a copy of the desired stuff, and were able to get the old
laptop open and pull the HD, even though you're a klutz. This gives
hope you could get the new one open too.

Hi again, Dennis!

The reason I tried and succeeded in pulling the HD out of the old
laptop was that that laptop was already dead. So I figured I had
nothing to lose by trying to figure out out to get the HD out of it.

But I'd hate to try the same experiment on my "new" hand-me-down
laptop and end up messing it up.

However, I think you're right that best solution to my problem is to
just install the old hard drive in the "new" laptop.

So I'm going to very slowly and cautiously see if I can figure out how
to open up the new laptop and pull out its HD.

In the meantime, I'd be grateful if you (or anyone following this
thread, for that matter) could instruct me on how to make a complete
back-up of the contents of the old HD (which is now connected via a
USB adapter to a PC running Windows XP).

I'd like to make a couple of full back-ups of that drive, just in case
I end up toasting it when I try to plug it in to the "new" laptop.

Burning to a CD would be my preference.

Will in Seattle
a.k.a. "Clueless"

Memo en Seattle

2011-07-18 03:41:48 UTC

Post by DMcCunney
So you have a copy of the desired stuff, and were able to get the old
laptop open and pull the HD, even though you're a klutz. This gives
hope you could get the new one open too.

Hi one more time, Dennis!

I'm grateful to you for encouraging me to try opening up my "new" hand-
me-down laptop, and swapping in the hard drive from my old dead
laptop.

I found a service manual on the web:

http://www.elhvb.com/mobokive/edwin/laptops/Toshiba/sat&sat-pro/2520-2540/2520.pdf

And was able to quickly and easily pull the hard drive from the newer
laptop.

But when I tried to install the hard drive from the older laptop in
its place, it just wouldn't fit. It's height was about an eighth of
an inch thicker than the drive I had removed.

So, rather that give up, I decided to take that working hard drive
that I had just pulled from the newer laptop and hook it up to my PC
and then copy onto it all the directories and files that I had
previously copied from the old laptop's hard drive. Still with me?

Then I put the hard drive back into the newer laptop and turned it
on, and I'll be danged if it didn't boot up and run my overly complex
autoexec.bat and config.sys files from a decade ago. It's like having
my own private time machine!

So, it looks like I'm ready to try to pick-up where I left off back in
the 1990s, before I was sidetracked by the onset of a disabling
chronic illness, loss of my job and many months of homelessness.

This is going to be a lot of fun trying to re-learn MS-DOS all over
again!

Thanks again for taking the time to coach me on this project.

Will in Seattle
a.k.a. "Clueless"

DMcCunney

2011-07-29 15:48:43 UTC

Post by Memo en Seattle

Post by DMcCunney
So you have a copy of the desired stuff, and were able to get the old
laptop open and pull the HD, even though you're a klutz. This gives
hope you could get the new one open too.

Hi one more time, Dennis!
I'm grateful to you for encouraging me to try opening up my "new" hand-
me-down laptop, and swapping in the hard drive from my old dead
laptop.
http://www.elhvb.com/mobokive/edwin/laptops/Toshiba/sat&sat-pro/2520-2540/2520.pdf
And was able to quickly and easily pull the hard drive from the newer
laptop.

Cool!

Post by Memo en Seattle
But when I tried to install the hard drive from the older laptop in
its place, it just wouldn't fit. It's height was about an eighth of
an inch thicker than the drive I had removed.

That's...different. I haven't had that particular problem.

Post by Memo en Seattle
So, rather that give up, I decided to take that working hard drive
that I had just pulled from the newer laptop and hook it up to my PC
and then copy onto it all the directories and files that I had
previously copied from the old laptop's hard drive. Still with me?

Yes.

Post by Memo en Seattle
Then I put the hard drive back into the newer laptop and turned it
on, and I'll be danged if it didn't boot up and run my overly complex
autoexec.bat and config.sys files from a decade ago. It's like having
my own private time machine!

<grin> "I love it when a plan comes together..."

Post by Memo en Seattle
So, it looks like I'm ready to try to pick-up where I left off back in
the 1990s, before I was sidetracked by the onset of a disabling
chronic illness, loss of my job and many months of homelessness.

I'm delighted you are at least back to a point of being able to do this.

Post by Memo en Seattle
This is going to be a lot of fun trying to re-learn MS-DOS all over
again!

I had to brush off some rust, too. One of my current projects is some
one-size-fits-all init files. I run WinXP SP3, and still have an
assortment of MS-DOS programs I use, which run in a console window on
XP. One of the things I used back in the MS-DOS days was a shareware
drop-in replacement for COMMAND.COM called 4DOS, which added a boatload
of features. 4DOS is no longer sold/supported, and the publisher has a
32 bit variant called Take Command. (The author released the source
code to 4DOS, with the proviso that is not be used to create a 32 bit
version.) I have 4DOS, and TCC/LE, a freeware console only limited
version of the full package. The stuff omitted from LE is mostly
network stuff I don't need, so the LE version is sufficient. But I had
a fair bit of effort invested in config files for 4DOS to do things like
define aliases, and I want to use them in both environments.

There are some platform specific differences in syntax, so I'm playing
with a startup file that checks the version of the product on startup
(using an internal variable maintained by the product), and branching
from there. I hope I can handle the syntax differences (like whether ^
or & is used as a command separator) via variables, and set the
variables to the right value based on whether 4DOS or TCC is active. Fun.

Post by Memo en Seattle
Thanks again for taking the time to coach me on this project.

You're more than welcome.

Post by Memo en Seattle
Will in Seattle
a.k.a. "Clueless"

______
Dennis

Herbert Kleebauer

2011-07-05 18:56:07 UTC

Yes! That's how I would prefer to do it. I've already plugged the
old HD via an adapter into my desktop PC and copied all of the folders
over to the PC's HD.

But don't use the Windows Explorer to copy the files or strange things
can happen.

The story:

Before I disposed an old 486 DOS PC, I made a backup of the hard disk:

- make a big zip file on the 486
- use ftp to transfer it to an XP system
- unzip it on the XP system
- copy the files to an usb disk

A final compare showed the correct file count but
a different total size.

Here the file:

http://www.bitlib.de/rw.pi

Download and save it to disk, the file size should be 995 byte.
Now use the explorer to change the file name rw.pi -> rw.pif and the
size will increase to 2857 byte. If you write protect the file
before you rename it, the content is not changed. But if you
then remove the write protection, the file size immediately increases.

H-Man

2011-07-05 21:40:50 UTC

Yes! That's how I would prefer to do it. I've already plugged the
old HD via an adapter into my desktop PC and copied all of the folders
over to the PC's HD.

But don't use the Windows Explorer to copy the files or strange things
can happen.
- make a big zip file on the 486
- use ftp to transfer it to an XP system
- unzip it on the XP system
- copy the files to an usb disk
A final compare showed the correct file count but
a different total size.
http://www.bitlib.de/rw.pi
Download and save it to disk, the file size should be 995 byte.
Now use the explorer to change the file name rw.pi -> rw.pif and the
size will increase to 2857 byte. If you write protect the file
before you rename it, the content is not changed. But if you
then remove the write protection, the file size immediately increases.

This is one of the odd things about Windows. It has everything to do with
how the system (XP) expects to see a .pif (program information file) file.
It sees a .pif file and makes it compatible with the system. As these are
not data and are essentially shortcuts to a DOS program, the ill effects
are minimal. If you create a simple text file called 'test.pi' and then
rename it to 'test.pif' the size does not change and the system does not
adjust it, because it is not a valid .pif file.

--
HK

Herbert Kleebauer

2011-07-06 13:58:56 UTC

Post by Herbert Kleebauer
http://www.bitlib.de/rw.pi
Download and save it to disk, the file size should be 995 byte.
Now use the explorer to change the file name rw.pi -> rw.pif and the
size will increase to 2857 byte. If you write protect the file
before you rename it, the content is not changed. But if you
then remove the write protection, the file size immediately increases.

If you use XP to backup a DOS/Win3.1 system and later restore it and
it doesn't work properly because XP has modified some of the
files without asking for allowance, then I would call this a seriously
misbehavior.

H-Man

2011-07-06 14:13:45 UTC

I have no way of trying this out right now, but do the altered .pif files
fail in Windows 3.1? If they do then I would tend to agree with you. There
are better tools for the job though. I would use a disk imaging app to copy
the disk. A problem might also occur when just using explorer to copy with
hidden and system files. Better to use the right tools, but I do agree with
you, Windows should not do this.

--
HK

Auric__

2011-07-07 10:02:05 UTC

I have no way of trying this out right now, but do the altered .pif
files fail in Windows 3.1? If they do then I would tend to agree with
you. There are better tools for the job though. I would use a disk
imaging app to copy the disk. A problem might also occur when just using
explorer to copy with hidden and system files. Better to use the right
tools, but I do agree with you, Windows should not do this.

This is quite interesting, really.

I have Windows or Workgroups installed under VMware. I extracted 3 .pifs from
there to my XP desktop (using a floppy image and WinImage). The .pifs did
*not* get altered in any way. Possibly it's because they don't point to
anything on the actual computer (QBASIC.PIF points at C:\DOS\QBASIC.EXE, for
example, which doesn't exist on the physical machine).

But your .pif did indeed get changed by my system. "Curiouser and
curiouser," said Alice.

Your .pif did work under my Windows for Workgroups install after being
altered by XP, but that's just one file tested. YMMV.

--
Error:
General Protection Fault in module BRAIN

H-Man

2011-07-07 14:58:54 UTC

Post by Auric__

I have no way of trying this out right now, but do the altered .pif
files fail in Windows 3.1? If they do then I would tend to agree with
you. There are better tools for the job though. I would use a disk
imaging app to copy the disk. A problem might also occur when just using
explorer to copy with hidden and system files. Better to use the right
tools, but I do agree with you, Windows should not do this.

This is quite interesting, really.
I have Windows or Workgroups installed under VMware. I extracted 3 .pifs from
there to my XP desktop (using a floppy image and WinImage). The .pifs did
*not* get altered in any way. Possibly it's because they don't point to
anything on the actual computer (QBASIC.PIF points at C:\DOS\QBASIC.EXE, for
example, which doesn't exist on the physical machine).
But your .pif did indeed get changed by my system. "Curiouser and
curiouser," said Alice.
Your .pif did work under my Windows for Workgroups install after being
altered by XP, but that's just one file tested. YMMV.

Very interesting. Could be that any file alterations are also backward
compatible such that there would be no ill effects.

--
HK

Auric__

2011-07-08 00:44:07 UTC

Post by Herbert Kleebauer
http://www.bitlib.de/rw.pi
Download and save it to disk, the file size should be 995 byte.
Now use the explorer to change the file name rw.pi -> rw.pif and
the size will increase to 2857 byte. If you write protect the file
before you rename it, the content is not changed. But if you
then remove the write protection, the file size immediately increases.

I have no way of trying this out right now, but do the altered .pif
files fail in Windows 3.1? If they do then I would tend to agree with
you. There are better tools for the job though. I would use a disk
imaging app to copy the disk. A problem might also occur when just
using explorer to copy with hidden and system files. Better to use the
right tools, but I do agree with you, Windows should not do this.

This is quite interesting, really.
I have Windows or Workgroups installed under VMware. I extracted 3
.pifs from there to my XP desktop (using a floppy image and WinImage).
The .pifs did *not* get altered in any way. Possibly it's because they
don't point to anything on the actual computer (QBASIC.PIF points at
C:\DOS\QBASIC.EXE, for example, which doesn't exist on the physical
machine).
But your .pif did indeed get changed by my system. "Curiouser and
curiouser," said Alice.
Your .pif did work under my Windows for Workgroups install after being
altered by XP, but that's just one file tested. YMMV.

Very interesting. Could be that any file alterations are also backward
compatible such that there would be no ill effects.

I don't know. Nowhere near enough info to even make a guess. You might be
right, but I don't really feel like taking the time and effort to find out,
either way. Shrug.

--
Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful.
It's the transition that's troublesome.
-- Isaac Asimov

Horst Franke

2011-07-31 20:17:31 UTC