Discussion:
Alt-Enter Doesn't Window DOS Graphics in XP (Used to work in NT & W2K)
(too old to reply)
Doug White
2006-02-20 21:55:17 UTC
Permalink
I have a heavy investment in DOS based programs for microwave circuit
design that I have used for many years. I have managed to keep them
going through numerous OS changes, and they worked well in both Windows
NT and W2K. It appears that Microsoft has broken a feature I rely on
when they came out with XP.

The problem is that Alt-Enter should toggle between full screen &
"windowed" mode when a program is running in the DOS emulator. In NT &
W2K, this worked independent of whether the program was displaying text
or graphics. The graphics screen would be "frozen" when windowed, but
you could use Alt-Print Screen to copy the graphics to the clipboard,
which allowed the resulting image to be pasted into Word, PowerPoint etc.
for documentation & reports. I have verified that this problem occurs on
a variety of XP machines, with very different grqphics systems, so I
don't believe it is the hardware. I have also tried all of the various
"compatibility" modes. I have also investigated a number of 3rd party
screen capture utilities. None of them work with DOS graphics UNLESS you
can use Alt-Enter to window the program. Although I believe there was
something there a while back, MS's "knowledge base" seems to have
developed Alzheimer's, because there is no mention of this issue that I
could find. A thorough scan of old Usenet postings shows that A) I am
not alone, and B) nobody has a fix.

Because the programs work OK in XP, there is no point in going to a dual
boot system. The feature I am missing is unique to running DOS (or a
DOS emulator) in a windows environment. Short of downgrading to W2K
(which the IT people at work won't likely let me do), I appear to be
stuck.

My questions are:

1) Has anyone else managed to get this to work in XP? If you are brave,
I can send you a small program that will display a DOS graphics file to
test with.

2) Does anyone have any suggestions on possible ways to convince XP to
behave properly in this regard? It is still possible there is some
setting someplace would allow this to work, but I sure can't find it.

3) Are there 3rd party DOS emulators that would possibly work?

4) Is there any way to get Microsoft's attention about this issue? All
of my machines have OEM XP, which means Microsoft won't talk to me, and
Dell & IBM support just blame it on Micosoft & say there is nothing they
can do. I'd even be willing to pay $35 of my own money to place a
support call if I thought it would do any good. I work in the US
defense industry, and there is a war on. I'm trying to save lives, and I
find it REALLY annoying that Microsoft has the resources to code up
talking paperclips but won't fix things that prevent people from getting
real work done.

Thanks for any suggestions!

Doug White
Richard Bonner
2006-02-20 22:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Doug White wrote:
> I have a heavy investment in DOS based programs for microwave circuit
> design that I have used for many years. I have managed to keep them
> going through numerous OS changes, and they worked well in both Windows
> NT and W2K. It appears that Microsoft has broken a feature I rely on
> when they came out with XP.
>
> The problem is that Alt-Enter should toggle between full screen &
> "windowed" mode when a program is running in the DOS emulator. In NT &
> W2K, this worked independent of whether the program was displaying text
> or graphics.
>
> I have verified that this problem occurs on
> a variety of XP machines, with very different grqphics systems, so I
> don't believe it is the hardware.

> My questions are:

> 3) Are there 3rd party DOS emulators that would possibly work?

*** You might try DOS BOX. A link is at:

http://www.chebucto.ca/~ak621/DOS/Websites.html


> 4) Is there any way to get Microsoft's attention about this issue?

*** No. They would be very happy if everyone just forgot about DOS and
all its wonderful programs & utilities so that all would use their
monopolistic system.


> All
> of my machines have OEM XP, which means Microsoft won't talk to me, and
> Dell & IBM support just blame it on Micosoft & say there is nothing they
> can do. I'd even be willing to pay $35 of my own money to place a
> support call if I thought it would do any good. I work in the US
> defense industry, and there is a war on.

*** What? I thought you guys all went to Linux.


> I'm trying to save lives, and I
> find it REALLY annoying that Microsoft has the resources to code up
> talking paperclips but won't fix things that prevent people from getting
> real work done.
>

> Doug White

*** I doubt they are interested in lives - only in making more money
and screwing up as many competing systems as possible. To that end, I have
been getting e-mails from Windows users for several years now where the
entire e-mail text is on one line. They seem to have changed the code for
return/linefeed. They also changed the apostrophe code, as apostrophes are
now starting to show as question marks. )-:

It's really time for Microsoft to be broken up as was ATT.

Richard Bonner
http://www.chebucto.ca/~ak621/DOS/
Paul Bartlett
2006-02-21 21:51:16 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, Richard Bonner wrote:

> [most trimmed]

> *** I doubt they are interested in lives - only in making more money
> and screwing up as many competing systems as possible. To that end, I have
> been getting e-mails from Windows users for several years now where the
> entire e-mail text is on one line. They seem to have changed the code for
> return/linefeed. They also changed the apostrophe code, as apostrophes are
> now starting to show as question marks. )-:

Richard, surely you know :-) that most MS Windoozy software has
gone to a "paragraph" format in which a paragraph is a single physical
line and that it is up to the displaying program to wrap the visible
lines around appropriately for viewing.

As for the apostrophe business -- double quotation marks are the
same -- that is due to MS ignoring international standards. (IBM did
the same years ago. Standards? What do you mean, standards? We are
IBM.) The ISO 8859-1 (Latin-1) character set is a default character set
for many applications. That standard has some character positions
undefined, so MS, in their infinite wisdom (or arrogance) decided to
put some characters in those undefined positions, including "soft"
apostrophes and quotation marks. The real irritation is that so many
of their mail and news agents continue to mark the headers as
ISO-8859-1 when in fact it is their idiosyncratic Windows-1252
character set. MS software simply ignores the incorrect headers and
displays things the way MS wants it displayed, on the assumption that
since so many people already use MS software, if they keep on doing
things in a nonstandard way, more people will be tempted just to
knuckle under and go to Microsoft stuff.

--
Paul Bartlett
Richard Bonner
2006-02-22 13:56:23 UTC
Permalink
Paul Bartlett wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, Richard Bonner wrote:
> > [most trimmed]
> > *** I doubt they are interested in lives - only in making more money
> > and screwing up as many competing systems as possible. To that end, I have
> > been getting e-mails from Windows users for several years now where the
> > entire e-mail text is on one line. They seem to have changed the code for
> > return/linefeed. They also changed the apostrophe code, as apostrophes are
> > now starting to show as question marks. )-:

> Richard, surely you know :-) that most MS Windoozy software has
> gone to a "paragraph" format in which a paragraph is a single physical
> line and that it is up to the displaying program to wrap the visible
> lines around appropriately for viewing.

*** Of course. Microsoft has once again changed the standard so that
other systems don't display Windows' documents properly, if at all. )-:


> As for the apostrophe business -- double quotation marks are the
> same -- that is due to MS ignoring international standards. (IBM did
> the same years ago. Standards? What do you mean, standards? We are
> IBM.) The ISO 8859-1 (Latin-1) character set is a default character set
> for many applications.

*** My news and mail readers are set to that.


> That standard has some character positions
> undefined, so MS, in their infinite wisdom (or arrogance) decided to
> put some characters in those undefined positions, including "soft"
> apostrophes and quotation marks. The real irritation is that so many
> of their mail and news agents continue to mark the headers as
> ISO-8859-1 when in fact it is their idiosyncratic Windows-1252
> character set. MS software simply ignores the incorrect headers and
> displays things the way MS wants it displayed, on the assumption that
> since so many people already use MS software, if they keep on doing
> things in a nonstandard way, more people will be tempted just to
> knuckle under and go to Microsoft stuff.
> --
> Paul Bartlett

*** Yup, but what I see happening is that more & more people are
getting fed up with MS sleaziness and general annoyances; they are
switching away. The brother of a a salesperson to whom I spoke last week
says his brother's clients now are 30% Linux.

Richard Bonner
http://www.chebucto.ca/~ak621/DOS/
Frank Slootweg
2006-02-20 22:38:42 UTC
Permalink
[Note: microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support deleted, because my
News-server only allows 5 groups.]

Doug White <***@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> I have a heavy investment in DOS based programs for microwave circuit
> design that I have used for many years. I have managed to keep them
> going through numerous OS changes, and they worked well in both Windows
> NT and W2K. It appears that Microsoft has broken a feature I rely on
> when they came out with XP.
>
> The problem is that Alt-Enter should toggle between full screen &
> "windowed" mode when a program is running in the DOS emulator. In NT &
> W2K, this worked independent of whether the program was displaying text
> or graphics. The graphics screen would be "frozen" when windowed, but
> you could use Alt-Print Screen to copy the graphics to the clipboard,
> which allowed the resulting image to be pasted into Word, PowerPoint etc.
> for documentation & reports. I have verified that this problem occurs on
> a variety of XP machines, with very different grqphics systems, so I
> don't believe it is the hardware. I have also tried all of the various
> "compatibility" modes.

I have never user Alt-Enter before, but I just tried it on my XP
(+SP2) notebook and it seems to work.

I run my newsreader, tin, in a "Command Prompt" window. When I press
Alt-Enter, while in the "Command Prompt" window, all other windows
vanish and the "Command Prompt" window becomes sort of full screen. I
say "sort of" because the used area is not the whole physical screen.
There are some black margins on the left, right, top and bottom. I
assume they are caused by the resolution used (screen is 1024X768
pixels; Command Prompt window is 80 columns by 25 lines). I played a
little with the display resolution, both smaller and bigger, but that
amde things only worse. BTW, the effect from Alt-Enter is the same as
setting the Command Prompt window Properties -> Options -> "Display
Options" to "Full Screen".

Note that I have *not* tried this with a (DOS) graphics program, for
the simple reason that I don't have one handy. Also I have *not* tried
to capture the 'window' contents with Alt-Print Screen and paste it into
another program.

I hope this helps.

[rest deleted]
Doug White
2006-02-20 23:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Keywords:
In article <43fa44f2$0$8105$***@news.wanadoo.nl>, Frank Slootweg <***@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>[Note: microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support deleted, because my
>News-server only allows 5 groups.]
>
>Doug White <***@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> I have a heavy investment in DOS based programs for microwave circuit
>> design that I have used for many years. I have managed to keep them
>> going through numerous OS changes, and they worked well in both Windows
>> NT and W2K. It appears that Microsoft has broken a feature I rely on
>> when they came out with XP.
>>
>> The problem is that Alt-Enter should toggle between full screen &
>> "windowed" mode when a program is running in the DOS emulator. In NT &
>> W2K, this worked independent of whether the program was displaying text
>> or graphics. The graphics screen would be "frozen" when windowed, but
>> you could use Alt-Print Screen to copy the graphics to the clipboard,
>> which allowed the resulting image to be pasted into Word, PowerPoint etc.
>> for documentation & reports. I have verified that this problem occurs on
>> a variety of XP machines, with very different grqphics systems, so I
>> don't believe it is the hardware. I have also tried all of the various
>> "compatibility" modes.
>
> I have never user Alt-Enter before, but I just tried it on my XP
>(+SP2) notebook and it seems to work.
>
> I run my newsreader, tin, in a "Command Prompt" window. When I press
>Alt-Enter, while in the "Command Prompt" window, all other windows
>vanish and the "Command Prompt" window becomes sort of full screen. I
>say "sort of" because the used area is not the whole physical screen.
>There are some black margins on the left, right, top and bottom. I
>assume they are caused by the resolution used (screen is 1024X768
>pixels; Command Prompt window is 80 columns by 25 lines). I played a
>little with the display resolution, both smaller and bigger, but that
>amde things only worse. BTW, the effect from Alt-Enter is the same as
>setting the Command Prompt window Properties -> Options -> "Display
>Options" to "Full Screen".
>
> Note that I have *not* tried this with a (DOS) graphics program, for
>the simple reason that I don't have one handy. Also I have *not* tried
>to capture the 'window' contents with Alt-Print Screen and paste it into
>another program.

What you described is normal for a text based program, although I haven't
seen the border issue before. DOS graphics (without special hardware
drivers) are limited to standard VGA resolution of 640 x 480. If you run
a DOS text program at a higher resolution, I'm not surprised it gets a
bit wonky when it tries to go full screen. I'm actually surprised it
works at all...

The shortage of DOS graphics programs is why I wrote a custom program to
pop up a full screen plot. I sent it to one of the third-party
screen-capture companies to try becasue they no longer had anything
around. This is despite their claims that their software would work in
such a mode.

Thanks for trying.

Doug White
Joe Fischer
2006-02-22 02:55:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, ***@alum.mit.edu (Doug White) wrote:

>The shortage of DOS graphics programs is why I wrote a custom program to
>pop up a full screen plot. I sent it to one of the third-party
>screen-capture companies to try becasue they no longer had anything
>around. This is despite their claims that their software would work in
>such a mode.

Have you tried the screen capture that comes with NeoPaint
for Dos, it is called NeoGrab.

I don't think I used it with a graphics screen, so I don't
know for sure it's capability, I used it to capture ANSI art as
a graphics file, and then convert that file to jpg.
I think it uses one screen mode that is both DOS text
and graphics capable, it may move the text array to graphics
some way before capturing.

But all this may depend on the graphics card, there are
so many text and graphics modes, many of them are brand
specific.
You would be better off with a no-name clone box
than with a brand name, almost any graphics card will
run in a clone as built by thousands of small computer
builders.

I haven't tried NeoGrab with XP, I run my primary
masters in mobile racks so I can have backups and no lost
time, and I have 2 copies of XP Pro, but only run them
for special reasons.

Don't you have an old drive with win98SE on it
that could be run on the same machine(s) with mobile
racks? I would give up computing if I had to run
XP all the time, even though I have it set to look
like Win98.

If you are on a new machine, it may be the graphics
card, but I guess if you have programmed graphics you
know about Ralf Brown's interrupt list for the many
graphics cards.

It might be worth changing the graphics card,
but the poor support companies may say opening
the box voids the warranty. :-)

Joe Fischer
Joe Fischer
2006-02-22 03:02:02 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Joe Fischer <***@ig1oucom> wrote:

>On Mon, ***@alum.mit.edu (Doug White) wrote:

I forgot to mention another capture program that
I bought because it can be used to put multiple images
on the screen for printing, it is

CaptureEZpro

about $39 online, I think.

But NeoGrab should run in command line mode,
I hope.

Joe Fischer
Doug White
2006-02-24 01:06:00 UTC
Permalink
Keywords:
In article <***@4ax.com>, ***@ig1ou.com wrote:
>On Tue, Joe Fischer <***@ig1oucom> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, ***@alum.mit.edu (Doug White) wrote:
>
> I forgot to mention another capture program that
>I bought because it can be used to put multiple images
>on the screen for printing, it is
>
>CaptureEZpro
>
> about $39 online, I think.
>
> But NeoGrab should run in command line mode,
>I hope.

I have enquired with a number of screen capture program outfits, and no
one has said they can capture a DOS graphics screen in XP. I have an
email in to the Neograb folks to see if it works. I just tried Snagit,
and although they claim it will work, their procedure requires that
Alt-Enter works the way it did in W2K & NT.

Doug White
Joe Fischer
2006-02-24 05:33:32 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, ***@alum.mit.edu (Doug White) wrote:

>I have enquired with a number of screen capture program outfits, and no
>one has said they can capture a DOS graphics screen in XP. I have an
>email in to the Neograb folks to see if it works. I just tried Snagit,
>and although they claim it will work, their procedure requires that
>Alt-Enter works the way it did in W2K & NT.

I just spent two hours messing with XP Pro, I downloaded
CSHOWA (original Dos Version) and it aborted with an error msg.

I downloaded QV free trial from Germany and tried the
ALT-ENTER and it just goes to desktop, no windowed DOS
graphics image.

I did find something in the help and support option by
entering "clipboard dos window" in the search there.
It gives the symptoms of a problem and 2 or 3 fixes to
get the clipboard working in DOS mode.

I don't use the clipboard much, so maybe something
is possible there.

I tried CaptureEZpro (it makes a sound like a camera
shutter when it is activated), but I don't think it worked in
DOS mode at all.


Is there some reason the program could not be run
on a win98SE or earlier machine it is known to work on?

I absolutely need the mobile racks so I can switch
from one OS to another (only because I do all the computing
laying down and I don't want to move to another machine.

My two copies of XP Pro are in a drawer, one copy on
disk in a mobile rack with about 4 hours on it, and half that
with automatic updates running.

If the clipboard help info doesn't work it sounds
like a used second machine with another OS is the best bet.

Joe Fischer
Sjouke Burry
2006-02-21 02:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Frank Slootweg wrote:
> [Note: microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support deleted, because my
> News-server only allows 5 groups.]
>
> Doug White <***@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>>I have a heavy investment in DOS based programs for microwave circuit
>>design that I have used for many years. I have managed to keep them
>>going through numerous OS changes, and they worked well in both Windows
>>NT and W2K. It appears that Microsoft has broken a feature I rely on
>>when they came out with XP.
>>
>>The problem is that Alt-Enter should toggle between full screen &
>>"windowed" mode when a program is running in the DOS emulator. In NT &
>>W2K, this worked independent of whether the program was displaying text
>>or graphics. The graphics screen would be "frozen" when windowed, but
>>you could use Alt-Print Screen to copy the graphics to the clipboard,
>>which allowed the resulting image to be pasted into Word, PowerPoint etc.
>>for documentation & reports. I have verified that this problem occurs on
>>a variety of XP machines, with very different grqphics systems, so I
>>don't believe it is the hardware. I have also tried all of the various
>>"compatibility" modes.
>
>
> I have never user Alt-Enter before, but I just tried it on my XP
> (+SP2) notebook and it seems to work.
>
> I run my newsreader, tin, in a "Command Prompt" window. When I press
> Alt-Enter, while in the "Command Prompt" window, all other windows
> vanish and the "Command Prompt" window becomes sort of full screen. I
> say "sort of" because the used area is not the whole physical screen.
> There are some black margins on the left, right, top and bottom. I
> assume they are caused by the resolution used (screen is 1024X768
> pixels; Command Prompt window is 80 columns by 25 lines). I played a
> little with the display resolution, both smaller and bigger, but that
> amde things only worse. BTW, the effect from Alt-Enter is the same as
> setting the Command Prompt window Properties -> Options -> "Display
> Options" to "Full Screen".
>
> Note that I have *not* tried this with a (DOS) graphics program, for
> the simple reason that I don't have one handy. Also I have *not* tried
> to capture the 'window' contents with Alt-Print Screen and paste it into
> another program.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> [rest deleted]
Tested fractint(for DOS) and it works fine with some grapics
resolutions.
Tested a number of fractal prgrams i wrote,and they did not
work with the SVGACC graphics library, but they do with the
MS 6.0 C graphics library (wich is also used by MS fortran 5/6)
I have not yet tested the WATCOM compiler in this regard.
Some of the problems today seem to come from slightly
incompatable SVGA monitors , with only an"out of sync"
message on the screen,so the last batch of monitors seem
not to support all old VGA modes.
Ctrl printscreen does not seem to work however.
9***@gmail.com
2006-02-23 00:38:04 UTC
Permalink
I've tried Alt-Enter also and it seems to work fine for me
Doug White
2006-02-23 01:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Keywords:
In article <***@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "***@gmail.com" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>I've tried Alt-Enter also and it seems to work fine for me

Are you certain you had a DOS _graphics_ screen showing? If so, PLEASE
let me know what sort of graphics card you have, and any settings in the
shortcut properties that might explain what I'm doing wrong/different.

It's beginning to look like the problem may be with many modern graphics
adapters. I don't know if this is a hardware issue or possibly something
that can be dealt with by driver updates. Until I get some solid info on
the few systems that seem to work, the mystery remains unsolved.

Thanks for your help.

Doug White
Joe Fischer
2006-02-23 02:34:20 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, ***@alum.mit.edu (Doug White) wrote:

>It's beginning to look like the problem may be with many modern graphics
>adapters. I don't know if this is a hardware issue or possibly something
>that can be dealt with by driver updates. Until I get some solid info on
>the few systems that seem to work, the mystery remains unsolved.

If the video out connector is on the motherboard,
chances are it only supports the most used windows resolutions
and a minimal hardware resolution 640 x 480, possibly text
only.
How many machines are involved, if just one, an
old hard drive and DOS seems like an option.

My newest motherboard has both SATA and ATA
controllers, plus will boot from USB, LAN, or almost anything,
but I found the SATA to be a pain because of the complex
configuration to switch from SATA to ATA, and I haven't
been able to get them both available at the same time.

Older ATX and AT machines are a dime a dozen,
I always keep a couple to have for testing or emergency.

Joe Fischer
Frank Slootweg
2006-02-23 09:58:28 UTC
Permalink
Doug White <***@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Keywords:
> In article <***@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "***@gmail.com" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I've tried Alt-Enter also and it seems to work fine for me
>
> Are you certain you had a DOS _graphics_ screen showing?

Yes, *that* is the point: Is *graphics* *displayed* while *windowed*
(i.e. *not* full screen)?

Your "Subject:" says it correctly, but it's hard to interpret for
someone not familiar with the problem.

After my earlier response, I tried with a DOS graphics program (CSHOW)
showing a GIF picture.

When I tell CSHOW the dipslay the picture, XP switches to 'full' (see
my earlier comments on not-quite full screen) and displays the picture.

When I then do Alt-Enter, XP switches to a normal windowed
environment, but the CSHOW window is minimized. I get can get the CSHOW
window to restore (i.e. normal window) by Properties -> Full Screen ->
Window -> OK (i.e. pretending to change a setting), *BUT* then the CSHOW
window shows the *text* part (i.e. the menus), *not* the graphics
picture (and the window is frozen).

I.e. the problem is not per se that Alt-Enter does not work, because
it sort of does, but that 1) the *window* does not show the graphics and
hence Alt-PrintScreen can not save it, and 2) the *full screen* does
show the graphics, but Alt-PrtScreen does not work while in full screen
mode. I.e. Catch-22.

So to solve the problem, either the window should display the
graphics, or there has to be a way to capture the graphics screen while
in full screen mode.

[rest deleted]
Joe Fischer
2006-02-23 15:44:32 UTC
Permalink
On 23 Feb Frank Slootweg <***@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

>Doug White <***@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> Are you certain you had a DOS _graphics_ screen showing?
>
> Yes, *that* is the point: Is *graphics* *displayed* while *windowed*
>(i.e. *not* full screen)?
>
> Your "Subject:" says it correctly, but it's hard to interpret for
>someone not familiar with the problem.

It seems to me that if it is only XP that has a problem
(which can surely be tested by booting with a DOS floppy and
running CSHOW or any program that uses the needed screen
resolution to see if the graphics card supports it), then one
solution may be possible using a TSR to simply blow the
content of Sector A000 to the screen and capture it or write
it to a BMP or BSAVE file format.

> After my earlier response, I tried with a DOS graphics program (CSHOW)
>showing a GIF picture.
>
> When I tell CSHOW the dipslay the picture, XP switches to 'full' (see
>my earlier comments on not-quite full screen) and displays the picture.

Would setting XP to "look like" Win98 make any difference,
or is that only for the desktop?

> When I then do Alt-Enter, XP switches to a normal windowed
>environment, but the CSHOW window is minimized. I get can get the CSHOW
>window to restore (i.e. normal window) by Properties -> Full Screen ->
>Window -> OK (i.e. pretending to change a setting), *BUT* then the CSHOW
>window shows the *text* part (i.e. the menus), *not* the graphics
>picture (and the window is frozen).

An old version of CSHOW should be easy to find as
Shareware, and should be a good way to test the graphics card.

> I.e. the problem is not per se that Alt-Enter does not work, because
>it sort of does, but that 1) the *window* does not show the graphics and
>hence Alt-PrintScreen can not save it, and 2) the *full screen* does
>show the graphics, but Alt-PrtScreen does not work while in full screen
>mode. I.e. Catch-22.

My problem is usually "nothing works".

> So to solve the problem, either the window should display the
>graphics, or there has to be a way to capture the graphics screen while
>in full screen mode.
>[rest deleted]

AFAIK, all DOS programs use strictly SECTOR A000
for all graphics screens (with no extended memory used).

The only problem might be with windows not allowing
a TSR access, or formatting the buffer data to a file format.
I think the screen buffer in A000 is a viewable image
if activated (scanned to the monitor), so there may even be
a TSR that will write it to a BMP or BSAVE file.

While XP can be installed on either FAT32 or NTFS
partitions, most installations are NTFS as I understand XP
is supposed to be a dog on FAT32.

Being able to solve a problem like this should be
easy for even novice programmers who know the graphics
hardware resolutions well. The IBM and clone machines
have had so many resolutions, I haven't been able to keep
up with all of them. The TIPC had the RGB graphics
screens in C000, C800 and D000, making BSAVE files
extremely simple to use, I don't know if this is the case
with IBM screen buffer format in A000.

This all assumes it is an image file or printout from
a graphics file or screen capture is wanted.

Joe Fischer
Jason Burgon
2006-02-23 17:32:58 UTC
Permalink
"Joe Fischer" <***@ig1oucom> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...

> AFAIK, all DOS programs use strictly SECTOR A000
> for all graphics screens (with no extended memory used).

No, not true if you include DPMI programs. Many (including all mine - see
sig) will use the Linear Frame Buffer (LFB) to access the video memory if:

(1) VESA VBE 2.0 or higher extensions are present
(2) The particular video mode used supports LFB access.

This allows for very fast access to the video memory - often over 10 times
faster than $A000 access.

However, the point is probably mute for this particular problem because
AFAIK, the Windows NT line of O/S's don't emulate the VBE BIOS extensions.

--
Jay

Author of Graphic Vision
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gvision/
Frank Slootweg
2006-02-23 18:32:04 UTC
Permalink
[Note: I'm not the OP, Doug White, so I'll just respond to a few points.]

Joe Fischer <***@ig1oucom> wrote:
> On 23 Feb Frank Slootweg <***@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>
> >Doug White <***@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >> Are you certain you had a DOS _graphics_ screen showing?
> >
> > Yes, *that* is the point: Is *graphics* *displayed* while *windowed*
> >(i.e. *not* full screen)?
> >
> > Your "Subject:" says it correctly, but it's hard to interpret for
> >someone not familiar with the problem.
>
> It seems to me that if it is only XP that has a problem
> (which can surely be tested by booting with a DOS floppy and
> running CSHOW or any program that uses the needed screen
> resolution to see if the graphics card supports it),

I don't think that's the problem. The graphics program *does* work
correctly in full screen mode, so doing a (real) DOS-based test does not
provide any additional information.

> then one
> solution may be possible using a TSR to simply blow the
> content of Sector A000 to the screen and capture it or write
> it to a BMP or BSAVE file format.

I don't think one can have/use TSRs with XP's "Command Prompt"
'DOS-box' (whether the normal CMD.EXE or COMMAND.EXE).

> > After my earlier response, I tried with a DOS graphics program (CSHOW)
> >showing a GIF picture.
> >
> > When I tell CSHOW the dipslay the picture, XP switches to 'full' (see
> >my earlier comments on not-quite full screen) and displays the picture.
>
> Would setting XP to "look like" Win98 make any difference,
> or is that only for the desktop?

The "Command Prompt" 'DOS box' on XP does not have/allow any
compatibility settings. When you do Start -> Command Prompt and then
right-click to get the Properties, the Compatibility tab says
"Compatibilty modes cannot be set on this program because it is part of
Windows XP." and the "Compatibility mode", "Display settings" and "Input
settings" are greyed-out. I also tried the Program Compatibility Wizard
on the graphics program (CSHOW.EXE), but that did not help because this
wizard is apparently only intended for *Windows* programs, not for DOS
ones.

[rest deleted]
Wesley Vogel
2006-02-23 19:50:13 UTC
Permalink
> I don't think one can have/use TSRs with XP's "Command Prompt"
> 'DOS-box' (whether the normal CMD.EXE or COMMAND.EXE).

To run a memory-resident program with another program
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/windows/xp/all/proddocs/en-us/windows_dos_run_tsr.mspx

To run a memory-resident program in a window
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/windows/xp/all/proddocs/en-us/windows_dos_popup_in_window.mspx

Dosonly
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/windows/xp/all/proddocs/en-us/dosonly.mspx

Ntcmdprompt
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/windows/xp/all/proddocs/en-us/ntcmdprompt.mspx

> wizard is apparently only intended for *Windows* programs, not for DOS
> ones.

Program Compatibility Wizard is for DOS and old Windows programs.

Run Older Programs on Windows XP
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnmore/appcompat.mspx

HOW TO: Use Windows Program Compatibility Mode in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/292533

How to use the Program Compatibility Wizard in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/301911

Getting older programs to run on Windows XP
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/windows/xp/all/proddocs/en-us/compatibility_tab_and_wizard.mspx

Using the Compatibility Tab
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/maintain/lgcyapps.mspx#EHAA
from...
How to Run Legacy Applications Using Windows XP
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/maintain/lgcyapps.mspx

--
Hope this helps. Let us know.

Wes
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User

In news:43fdffa4$0$24534$***@news.wanadoo.nl,
Frank Slootweg <***@ddress.is.invalid> hunted and pecked:
> [Note: I'm not the OP, Doug White, so I'll just respond to a few points.]
>
> Joe Fischer <***@ig1oucom> wrote:
>> On 23 Feb Frank Slootweg <***@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Doug White <***@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>>>> Are you certain you had a DOS _graphics_ screen showing?
>>>
>>> Yes, *that* is the point: Is *graphics* *displayed* while *windowed*
>>> (i.e. *not* full screen)?
>>>
>>> Your "Subject:" says it correctly, but it's hard to interpret for
>>> someone not familiar with the problem.
>>
>> It seems to me that if it is only XP that has a problem
>> (which can surely be tested by booting with a DOS floppy and
>> running CSHOW or any program that uses the needed screen
>> resolution to see if the graphics card supports it),
>
> I don't think that's the problem. The graphics program *does* work
> correctly in full screen mode, so doing a (real) DOS-based test does not
> provide any additional information.
>
>> then one
>> solution may be possible using a TSR to simply blow the
>> content of Sector A000 to the screen and capture it or write
>> it to a BMP or BSAVE file format.
>
> I don't think one can have/use TSRs with XP's "Command Prompt"
> 'DOS-box' (whether the normal CMD.EXE or COMMAND.EXE).
>
>>> After my earlier response, I tried with a DOS graphics program (CSHOW)
>>> showing a GIF picture.
>>>
>>> When I tell CSHOW the dipslay the picture, XP switches to 'full' (see
>>> my earlier comments on not-quite full screen) and displays the picture.
>>
>> Would setting XP to "look like" Win98 make any difference,
>> or is that only for the desktop?
>
> The "Command Prompt" 'DOS box' on XP does not have/allow any
> compatibility settings. When you do Start -> Command Prompt and then
> right-click to get the Properties, the Compatibility tab says
> "Compatibilty modes cannot be set on this program because it is part of
> Windows XP." and the "Compatibility mode", "Display settings" and "Input
> settings" are greyed-out. I also tried the Program Compatibility Wizard
> on the graphics program (CSHOW.EXE), but that did not help because this
> wizard is apparently only intended for *Windows* programs, not for DOS
> ones.
>
> [rest deleted]
Jason Burgon
2006-02-23 17:24:30 UTC
Permalink
"Frank Slootweg" <***@ddress.is.invalid> wrote in message
news:43fd8744$0$9590$***@news.wanadoo.nl...

> So to solve the problem, either the window should display the
> graphics, or there has to be a way to capture the graphics screen while
> in full screen mode.

Then use NeoGrab (comes with f NeoPaint). It's quite good.

--
Jay

Author of Graphic Vision
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gvision/
Doug White
2006-02-25 22:39:17 UTC
Permalink
Keywords:
In article <idmLf.1167$***@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>, "Jason Burgon" <***@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"Frank Slootweg" <***@ddress.is.invalid> wrote in message
>news:43fd8744$0$9590$***@news.wanadoo.nl...
>
>> So to solve the problem, either the window should display the
>> graphics, or there has to be a way to capture the graphics screen while
>> in full screen mode.
>
>Then use NeoGrab (comes with f NeoPaint). It's quite good.

I contacted the NeoGrab folks, and they said they weren't certain
but didn't think it would work. They have a demo program, but given
their lack of confidence, I haven't bothered trying it.

Doug White
Richard Bonner
2006-02-24 12:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Frank Slootweg wrote:
> After my earlier response, I tried with a DOS graphics program (CSHOW)
> showing a GIF picture.

> When I tell CSHOW the dipslay the picture, XP switches to 'full' (see
> my earlier comments on not-quite full screen) and displays the picture.

*** I am not surprised that CSHOW needs to be full screen. I suggest
that you try "SEA". It's an excellent DOS viewer and may work in a Window.
A link is at:

http://www.chebucto.ca/~ak621/DOS/Websites.html

> When I then do Alt-Enter, XP switches to a normal windowed
> environment, but the CSHOW window is minimized. I get can get the CSHOW
> window to restore (i.e. normal window) by Properties -> Full Screen ->
> Window -> OK (i.e. pretending to change a setting), *BUT* then the CSHOW
> window shows the *text* part (i.e. the menus), *not* the graphics
> picture (and the window is frozen).

*** Unfortunately, XP uses a DOS emulator and will not run all DOS
programs properly.


> I.e. the problem is not per se that Alt-Enter does not work, because
> it sort of does, but that 1) the *window* does not show the graphics and
> hence Alt-PrintScreen can not save it, and 2) the *full screen* does
> show the graphics, but Alt-PrtScreen does not work while in full screen
> mode. I.e. Catch-22.

*** I have forgotten: Why do you need a screen capture? Why can the
graphic file not be displayed with another program or used directly for
your purpose?

Richard Bonner
http://www.chebucto.ca/~ak621/DOS/
Frank Slootweg
2006-02-24 14:05:42 UTC
Permalink
[Intentional top-post.]

Richard Bonner <***@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote:
> *** I have forgotten: Why do you need a screen capture? Why can the
> graphic file not be displayed with another program or used directly for
> your purpose?

I am *not* the original poster. Doug White is the OP. I.e. I don't
have a problem, Doug has and I'm just one of the people who is trying to
help him.

I *intentionally* used CSHOW, i.e. a program which runs in full screen
mode when displaying the graphics, because that is similar to the
problem Doug is having.

[Rest of response for reference:]

Richard Bonner <***@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > After my earlier response, I tried with a DOS graphics program (CSHOW)
> > showing a GIF picture.
>
> > When I tell CSHOW the dipslay the picture, XP switches to 'full' (see
> > my earlier comments on not-quite full screen) and displays the picture.
>
> *** I am not surprised that CSHOW needs to be full screen. I suggest
> that you try "SEA". It's an excellent DOS viewer and may work in a Window.
> A link is at:
>
> http://www.chebucto.ca/~ak621/DOS/Websites.html
>
> > When I then do Alt-Enter, XP switches to a normal windowed
> > environment, but the CSHOW window is minimized. I get can get the CSHOW
> > window to restore (i.e. normal window) by Properties -> Full Screen ->
> > Window -> OK (i.e. pretending to change a setting), *BUT* then the CSHOW
> > window shows the *text* part (i.e. the menus), *not* the graphics
> > picture (and the window is frozen).
>
> *** Unfortunately, XP uses a DOS emulator and will not run all DOS
> programs properly.
>
>
> > I.e. the problem is not per se that Alt-Enter does not work, because
> > it sort of does, but that 1) the *window* does not show the graphics and
> > hence Alt-PrintScreen can not save it, and 2) the *full screen* does
> > show the graphics, but Alt-PrtScreen does not work while in full screen
> > mode. I.e. Catch-22.
>
> *** I have forgotten: Why do you need a screen capture? Why can the
> graphic file not be displayed with another program or used directly for
> your purpose?
>
> Richard Bonner
> http://www.chebucto.ca/~ak621/DOS/
Doug White
2006-02-25 22:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Keywords:
In article <dtmvv2$690$***@News.Dal.Ca>, ***@chebucto.ns.ca (Richard Bonner) wrote:
>Frank Slootweg wrote:
>> After my earlier response, I tried with a DOS graphics program (CSHOW)
>> showing a GIF picture.
>
>> When I tell CSHOW the dipslay the picture, XP switches to 'full' (see
>> my earlier comments on not-quite full screen) and displays the picture.
>
>*** I am not surprised that CSHOW needs to be full screen. I suggest
>that you try "SEA". It's an excellent DOS viewer and may work in a Window.
>A link is at:
>
> http://www.chebucto.ca/~ak621/DOS/Websites.html
>
>> When I then do Alt-Enter, XP switches to a normal windowed
>> environment, but the CSHOW window is minimized. I get can get the CSHOW
>> window to restore (i.e. normal window) by Properties -> Full Screen ->
>> Window -> OK (i.e. pretending to change a setting), *BUT* then the CSHOW
>> window shows the *text* part (i.e. the menus), *not* the graphics
>> picture (and the window is frozen).
>
>*** Unfortunately, XP uses a DOS emulator and will not run all DOS
>programs properly.
>
>
>> I.e. the problem is not per se that Alt-Enter does not work, because
>> it sort of does, but that 1) the *window* does not show the graphics and
>> hence Alt-PrintScreen can not save it, and 2) the *full screen* does
>> show the graphics, but Alt-PrtScreen does not work while in full screen
>> mode. I.e. Catch-22.
>
>*** I have forgotten: Why do you need a screen capture? Why can the
>graphic file not be displayed with another program or used directly for
>your purpose?

My reason for wanting to be able to capture DOS graphics in XP is
four-fold:

1) Documentation: The results I'm getting in a graphics window are
graphical results of a CAD analysis. Frequency response of circuits,
complex impedance plots etc. I need to be able to paste them into
documents & reports for my work.

2) Presentations: I have to give sales pitches and program reviews on a
failry regular basis. Being able to get a screen shot into PowerPoint
cleanly (as opposed to printing it out & scanning it) is extremely
useful.

3) Dual-booting is a royal pain in the neck, and it's slow. I'm
frequently bouncing back & forth between my DOS CAD tools and Windows
based commercial programs. Besides, even if I was running DOS, I'd still
have to get a screen capture program (I used to use Screen Thief), save
the files, and then get them into Windows. I recently finish scanning,
OCR'ing, and cleaning up over 200 pages ofmanuals for my software, which
is now in PDF form. If I want to check the documentation, I don't want
to have to reboot.

4) I don't have room for a separate box dedicated to running DOS. I
would also still have the problems associated with capturing &
transfering the files to Windows.

Given that this all worked just fine in NT and W2K, and that the programs
RUN in XP OK, it's very annoying to have to rebuid my computer for dual
boot or get a whole second machine just so I can replicate the
functionality I had in W2K.

Doug White
Richard Bonner
2006-02-27 00:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Frank Slootweg wrote:

> Richard Bonner <***@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote:
> > *** I have forgotten: Why do you need a screen capture? Why can the
> > graphic file not be displayed with another program or used directly for
> > your purpose?

> I am *not* the original poster. Doug White is the OP. I.e. I don't
> have a problem, Doug has and I'm just one of the people who is trying to
> help him.

*** Sorry about that; I got lost in the quote characters. (-:


> I *intentionally* used CSHOW, i.e. a program which runs in full screen
> mode when displaying the graphics, because that is similar to the
> problem Doug is having.

*** OK - I have it, now.

Richard
Richard Bonner
2006-02-27 01:00:12 UTC
Permalink
Doug White wrote:
> Richard Bonner wrote:
> >*** I have forgotten: Why do you need a screen capture? Why can the
> >graphic file not be displayed with another program or used directly for
> >your purpose?

> My reason for wanting to be able to capture DOS graphics in XP is
> four-fold:

> 1) Documentation: The results I'm getting in a graphics window are
> graphical results of a CAD analysis. Frequency response of circuits,
> complex impedance plots etc. I need to be able to paste them into
> documents & reports for my work.
(Snip)

> 3) Dual-booting is a royal pain in the neck, and it's slow. I'm
> frequently bouncing back & forth between my DOS CAD tools and Windows
> based commercial programs. Besides, even if I was running DOS, I'd still
> have to get a screen capture program (I used to use Screen Thief), save
> the files, and then get them into Windows.

*** OK, I remember, now.

How about using a "Cut & Paste" utility that will save to a Windows
clipboard? Perhaps a DOS TSR. Still, XP may balk at that.


> I recently finish scanning,
> OCR'ing, and cleaning up over 200 pages of manuals for my software, which
> is now in PDF form. If I want to check the documentation, I don't want
> to have to reboot.

*** Can't an XP .pdf reader be used?


> 4) I don't have room for a separate box dedicated to running DOS. I
> would also still have the problems associated with capturing &
> transfering the files to Windows.

*** Yes, that is a problem. In what format does your CAD program save?
Are there no Windows readers/viewers for that file format? What about a
converter program that can convert to a format able to be viewed by
Windows?


> Given that this all worked just fine in NT and W2K, and that the programs
> RUN in XP OK, it's very annoying to have to rebuid my computer for dual
> boot or get a whole second machine just so I can replicate the
> functionality I had in W2K.

> Doug White

*** Yes, and these kinds of problems will only get worse with Windows
`Vista'. )-:

Richard Bonner
http://www.chebucto.ca/~ak621/DOS/
Day Brown
2006-02-27 19:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Well, ya, dual booting is a pain, but that aggrevation can be reduced.
I use Xandros linux to get online. Xandros automaticaly mounts my dos
partitions, so like when I downloaded a copy of SEA the other day, it
got copied to d:\t\ (as in testing but easier to type)

But if I want to boot to dos, I simply shove the DRD7 floppy in the
drive, and it comes up while I go get coffee or whatever. I've lots of
things to do away from the PC, so its no biggie to have it reboot, with
the dos boot floppy in or out.

I wish there still was a dos app to surf with, but only Linux hackers
can keep up with the crap from the bloatware outfits. But OTOH, I do
all my own work in dos, (and I'd like to see more info on dos driven
microwave transmitters. I live in a rural area with a lucrative market
for broad band thats not being met)... so no matter what kind of
sabotage software might screw up the Linux partitions, my own work is
backed up on another drive as well as a another partition. With LDIR et
al, I could, if need be copy from a dos drive to a Linux partition, but
aint been in that much of a hurry, and do it with the xandros file
manager. (which lacks some of the functionality of dos tools)

It aint that big a deal. Recently, I've seen dos apps that work with,
or without, DPMI, or with or without FAT 32. Some apps havta run on a
16 bit drive. Some seem to do ok with FREEDOS, some with DRDOS. huge
pain to sort out.

But now I wonder, is there a dos driver system for smartcards, USB or
whatever, that will boot from these *solid state* drives? Dont they
have like 128 meg? so couldnt I put all the dos apps that needed a
certain conifiguration on one card, all those that need another on
another? kinda like the old days before hard drives where we had
drawers full of floppies.

Xandros is still a pain cause I havta hit the enter key before it
accepts a blank password and boots up my desktop. Then I havta hit the
'connect' again and then click on firefox. Dos usta boot right to
{COMMO}, dial up EXEC-PC, get my email and download the files I wanted,
and it'd all be sitting there on my desktop when I got a round tuit.

Seems like lotsa folks leave the PC on all the time to solve this
problem, but the power consumption disturbs my sense of frugality.

But would a system that just ran off a smartcard do it with lots less
power? Could the dos app that started this thread be run off a
smartcard boot?
Richard Bonner
2006-02-28 16:50:36 UTC
Permalink
Day Brown wrote:

> I wish there still was a dos app to surf with

*** See the "Browsers" section at:

http://www.chebucto.ca/~ak621/DOS/Websites.html


> Recently, I've seen DOS apps that work with,
> or without, DPMI, or with or without FAT 32. Some apps have to run on a
> 16 bit drive. Some seem to do ok with FREEDOS, some with DRDOS. huge
> pain to sort out.

*** I have no problems running all my software on DR-DOS. Could you name
some specifics?


> is there a dos driver system for smartcards, USB or
> whatever, that will boot from these *solid state* drives? Don't they
> have like 128 meg? so couldn't I put all the dos apps that needed a
> certain conifiguration on one card, all those that need another on
> another?

*** I can't answer that, but you could use CONFIG.sys menus to select
your boot-up configuration all from one drive.


> Xandros is still a pain cause I have to hit the enter key before it
> accepts a blank password and boots up my desktop. Then I have to hit
> the
> 'connect' again and then click on firefox. DOS used to boot right to
> {COMMO}, dial up EXEC-PC, get my email and download the files I wanted,
> and it'd all be sitting there on my desktop when I got a round to it.

*** Linux can do that too, although I can't help you with the
command-line syntax for it.


> Seems like lots of folks leave the PC on all the time to solve this
> problem, but the power consumption disturbs my sense of frugality.

*** Then set the power management to power off hardware when not needed.

Richard Bonner
http://www.chebucto.ca/~ak621/DOS/
Charles Dye
2006-02-20 22:56:13 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:55:17 GMT, ***@alum.mit.edu (Doug White) wrote:

>The problem is that Alt-Enter should toggle between full screen &
>"windowed" mode when a program is running in the DOS emulator. In NT &
>W2K, this worked independent of whether the program was displaying text
>or graphics. The graphics screen would be "frozen" when windowed, but
>you could use Alt-Print Screen to copy the graphics to the clipboard,
>which allowed the resulting image to be pasted into Word, PowerPoint etc.
>for documentation & reports. I have verified that this problem occurs on
>a variety of XP machines, with very different grqphics systems, so I
>don't believe it is the hardware. I have also tried all of the various
>"compatibility" modes. I have also investigated a number of 3rd party
>screen capture utilities. None of them work with DOS graphics UNLESS you
>can use Alt-Enter to window the program.

Have you tried a virtual machine system like Bochs or Virtual PC? They
generally run in windows; it should be possible to Alt-PrtScrn them.

--
Charles Dye ***@highfiber.com
HeyBub
2006-02-21 00:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Doug White wrote:
> I have a heavy investment in DOS based programs for microwave circuit
> design that I have used for many years. I have managed to keep them
> going through numerous OS changes, and they worked well in both
> Windows NT and W2K. It appears that Microsoft has broken a feature I
> rely on when they came out with XP.

[...]

Try putting a formatted floppy in the drive. I'm not kidding.
J French
2006-02-26 08:44:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:55:17 GMT, ***@alum.mit.edu (Doug White)
wrote:

>I have a heavy investment in DOS based programs for microwave circuit
>design that I have used for many years. I have managed to keep them
>going through numerous OS changes, and they worked well in both Windows
>NT and W2K. It appears that Microsoft has broken a feature I rely on
>when they came out with XP.
>
>The problem is that Alt-Enter should toggle between full screen &
>"windowed" mode when a program is running in the DOS emulator. In NT &
>W2K, this worked independent of whether the program was displaying text
>or graphics. The graphics screen would be "frozen" when windowed, but
>you could use Alt-Print Screen to copy the graphics to the clipboard,
>which allowed the resulting image to be pasted into Word, PowerPoint etc.
>for documentation & reports.

<snip>

I've been following this thread with some interest.

Perhaps I'm wrong,
- but isn't the DOS Graphics screen mapped in memory ?

I used to do a lot with the monochrome graphical CGA screen, reading
and writing to it directly, and I've vague memories of doing the same
with the VGA, but that is a long time ago.

If it is mapped in memory, then it would be pretty easy to write a
small TSR that dumps the lot to a file
- just like the SNAP prototype in the MSDOS Encyclopaedia

I've never looked into later video drivers, but if this is a legacy
DOS program, it seems likely that it conforms to old standards.
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